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The Spanish gamecocks

 
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:54 am    Post subject: The Spanish gamecocks Reply with quote

As it's holiday time, maybe some of you will visit Spain. Unfortunately cockfighting is allowed only in the Canary islands and in Andalucia.
Andalucia is a region in the southern part of Spain. The local breed is called "Jerezano" as it comes from Jerez. This town is also known for the Sherry wine.
In Andalucia, people calls their gamecocks, "gallos ingleses" which means "English cocks". It's told that the English wine traders imported Sherry and exported the Old English Gamecocks.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo_combatiente_espa%C3%B1ol

In Andalucia, the gamecocks weigh from 1,400 to 1,840 gramms (3 to 4 lbs).
Their shanks can be yellow, green or slate grey.
http://www.subirimagenes.com/otros-escob-8650107.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCLWSQqOqk

The birds are fought in natural spurs. 2 cm long at most. Betting and advertising are banned. Only the cockers can be spectators.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCKEiYTfPS0
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shamolady
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BattlePosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for info Philippe.
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a video in a pit in the Canary islands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYuLUHsGeGc

Shooting videos is banned in Andalucia.
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philippe, just for the record the Canary Islands Game Fowl are a hybrid between Bankiva and Oriental.

The Spanish Game Fowl of Mainland Spain is traced back to the first domestic chickens brought to Europe by the Phoenicians some three thousand years ago. The oldest European chicken remains were recovered from Phoenician settlements and the bones are indistinguishable from Jerezanos.

By the way a Jerezano is the name given to a Spanish Game from Jerez de la Frontera.

After the Spanish acquired the chicken they were brought to England. These fowl were just like the Spanish and the English fowl remained as such until they were hybridised with foreign blood such as Asil / Oriental.

Between 500 and 400 years ago many English and Irish people settled in Spain where some of them became Sherry producers.

If the English settlers brought Game Fowl with them to Spain up to 500 years ago then such fowl would have been just like the Spanish Game Fowl. And back then the English Game Fowl were fought in natural spurs too. However there was a significant difference between the English and Spanish Game fowl in leg colour. The English Game Fowl were a white leg breed but the Spanish have yellow legs.

English Game Fowl was bred into Cuban Game fowl about 250 years ago and it shows in the fact that many Cuban Game have white legs.

If English Game was bred into Spanish Game then there should also be lots of white leg fowl in Spain, so where are they ?
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for information, Stormer.

Yet I don't understand one point. You write that the two breeds were alike unlike the English fowl were hybridised with foreign blood. And a little further, you write that the two breeds are different, the Spanish with yellow legs and the English with white legs.
By the way, I just read that the Oxford Old English game standard tells "legs white or yellow".
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Philippe, chickens were rare on Continental Europe / Iberia up until the 1st century BC. They were extremely rare in Britain up until the 1st century BC.

Today the English Game come different leg colours, but in the past English Game were grey / white legged.
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iberian Spanish game fowl leg colours are as follows - Black Breasted Red, Silver / Golden Duckwings, White, Pyle and Pinto all have yellow legs. Blue cocks have yellow legs, but Blue hens usually have slate grey legs.
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A painting with a Spanish gamecock with legs blue? It was made in 1952.
https://tri-tro.jimdo.com/gallinas-las-razas-espa%C3%B1olas/combatiente-espa%C3%B1ol-spanish-fighting/

Here a Spanish gamecock with green legs? http://ganaderiatreshermanos.com/exportacion-de-gallo-combatiente-espanol/
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Stormer,

I was a bit late to answer because we were on holiday in Portugal.
It's weird that there is no tradition of cockfighting in Portugal while Spain and Portugal share so much culture and history. Jerez de la Frontera is close to the Portuguese border. And their former colony, Brazil is fond of this sport.
Yet they look to like fighting sports with animals. They have a kind of corrida like in Spain. But they also have bull fighing - bull vs bull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0rpPUEoYmE
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Philippe, hope you had a good holiday.

The link with the painting or sketch of the cock does not look like a Spanish Game at all. I think it comes from Mexico and the cock looks like a half Asil.

The other link with the photos of the four cocks appear to be just random images taken from the internet. The two dubbed cocks look like half Asil. The Rose comb has a big head also. The photo of the single comb stag with the small head is a pure Spanish Game and I know where it is from.

There is a strain of Game fowl with green legs in the Canary Islands, they have a connection with Venezuela and it looks like some sort of Oriental hybridised fowl, but that is a different breed and another story.

Pure Spanish Game Fowl have a small tapered head and large eyes.
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why did the Spanish cockers call their gamecocks "gallos ingleses" "English cocks"?

For example, Tratado de los gallos ingleses. Written by Ramon Adame, 1857.
http://bdh.bne.es/bnesearch/biblioteca/Tratado%20de%20los%20gallos%20ingleses%20%20%20%20:%20%20%20%20%20modo%20de%20multiplicarlos,%20criarlos,%20re%C3%B1irlos%20y%20otras%20curiosidades%20an%C3%A1logas%20%20%20/qls/Adame,%20Ram%C3%B3n/qls/bdh0000077999;jsessionid=856DD1E5C4F1A0645581097CFADC0B45

Los gallos ingleses, written by Hijos de Cuesta in Madrid, 1899.
https://books.google.be/books?id=nJ0GBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=los+gallos+ingleses&source=bl&ots=mfK0PyOL_F&sig=pbsDa2uOMPeeOa-w63smRioEoCI&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAnO-DisDVAhVBJ1AKHa3LAvcQ6AEIbDAO#v=onepage&q=los%20gallos%20ingleses&f=false
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are starting to go around in circles now.

Dr H. P. Clarke wrote that British Game Fowl enthusiasts were of the opinion that cocking did not exist in Iberia until the British introduced it during the 19th century LOL

This was alleged to have happened during the Peninsular War.

However I contacted historians that specialise in the Peninsular War and I was told that there is no record of any cocks being sent out to Spain during that time. And that did not surprise me in the least.
The English Game cocks during the time of the Duke Of Wellington were bred to fight in long gaffs up to 3 1/2 inches long. These cocks were high breaking shfflers that would hit to the body. Such cocks would have been useless in Spain because their cocks were and are fought in natural spurs only.

I discovered that "Wellington referred to the Portuguese 3rd Cazadores Battalion as his fighting cocks hence the phrase "Wellingtons fighting cocks". That is probably were all this confusion with the name "Ingleses" began.

By the way the book by Hijos de Cuesta refers to the Game Fowl of Spain as "Raza Espanola".

Furthermore here is a quote from Finsterbusch - "For some reason or other, the Game cocks were formerly termed "Gallos Ingleses," English Game, though our esteemed friend Don Pedro Laborde Bois, for long years editor of Espana Avicola-----a noted writer and Game savant justly protested against this misnomer, having proved by evidence that their name "Combatientes Espanoles" is their unique and right cognomen."
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormer wrote:
We are starting to go around in circles now.


Sorry, it's my nature to be circumspect.

you write this:
"The English Game Fowl were a white leg breed but the Spanish have yellow legs. If English Game was bred into Spanish Game then there should also be lots of white leg fowl in Spain, so where are they ?"

Gervase Markham (1614) only mentions Blue/Gray & Yellow leg colour in the English fowl at that time.
Robert Howlett, The Royal Pastime of Cock-fighting (1709) mentions golden legs.
Sketchley, Gent, The Cocker (1814) mentions black and yellow legs.

As we know that the sherry wine business was intense between England and Jerez de la Frontera since the 17th century and that cockfighting was very popular in both countries, is it unreasonable to think that a two way imports of gamecocks was active since that time?
In view of the aforesaid elements, is the leg colour argument appropriate?
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philippe the landrace Game Fowl of England had white skin and grey / white legs. The other leg colours came from foreign blood that was only introduced in to England during the last few centuries.

Read this and pay particular attention to the last part -

The Sporting Magazine

December 1821

"Cocking

To the Editor of the Magazine.
Sir, As your valuable Magazine professes to embrace sporting of all descriptions, I beg to trouble you with an inquiry respecting the breed of game fowls, I take the criterion of "blood" in these animals, before trail, to be "fineness of feather" --- richness of plumage --- "cleanness" of feet, and keenness of aspect. But there has been introduced of late years some varieties quiet distinctly marked from the game fowls of old times. I mean such as "top knots" and "muffey heads," which were, I apprehend, quiet unknown to our ancestors: and if any of your correspondents can give information on the origin of these new breeds, I think your cocking correspondents and readers would be much gratified by it. The Malay crosses have certainly not much improved our original breeds either in vigour, shape, or plumage. .......... An Amateur Of THE Cock Pit."

The Sporting Magazine

January 1822

"The COCK-PIT---GOLD AND SILVER FISHERS.

To the Editor of the Sporting Magazine.
Sir, Your Correspondent, An Amateur of the Cock-Pit, proposes certain questions which I, another amateur, will do my best to answer. His description to determine the criterion of game in fowls, is no doubt correct, and perfectly analogous with that which determine the same quality in horses. Nevertheless, we have somewhat further to go, if we seek to reason fundamentally, although our journey may not prove quiet satisfactory. Facts, however, we can and have attained, and they in this, as so many other cases, must satisfy us, if we desire to be satisfied at all. I allude to the well known difficulty, both in the quadruped and the biped, that there are breeds, or species of both, with all the delicate fine and external attributes of feather, cleanness, and boldness in the bird, and of delicacy and symmetry in the beast, and yet the one shall not be a game bird, nor the other a racer. Had the facetious Osmer duly considered this, in his "Dissertation on Horses," he would, at any rate, have speared a portion of his ridicule of blood, a term, to shift without which, we sportsmen should find extreme difficulty. After all, call it blood, or by whatever term or denomination you please, it is a fact, on the experience of all ages, that although all domestic, fowls or cocks, are by nature pugnacious, and all horses can gallop, there is yet a distinct species of each, that possesses those qualities in a degree so super-eminent, that all comparison is lost between them and the genus (to express myself rather awkwardly) in general---the consequence, doubtless, of a superior organization, both external and internal, bestowed upon them by nature, but far more of the latter then the former. The result of my enquiries long since, respecting "topknots and muffey heads" in game cocks, was this: It was in consequence of certain crosses introduced with the view of enlarging the game breed; and the crosses were said to be from foreign fighting stock, but from what country, I have been unable to learn. This change of opinion and attachment to size, in game fowls, probably originated at about the same period when a similar predilection took place on the turf, in respect to race horses; indeed might be a humble imitation of that. ..........

The Malay or Chittagong cross, in game cocks, was soon relinquished, although it certainly gave additional size and power, and sometimes, perhaps, superior abilities for continuance in battle; but it seemed to depress and deaden the active and fierce spirit of our English cocks, in equal degree as it lowered the brilliancy of their plumage, and sullied the pure white of their flesh."
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I've paid particular attention to the last part: "our English cocks ... the pure white of their flesh".

As my english is not good, I looked at the definition of "flesh": the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of a human or an animal.

I've thought we were talking about shanks (or legs) colour?
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philippe, there is a connection between leg colour and skin colour.
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saj
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BattlePosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormer wrote:
Philippe, there is a connection between leg colour and skin colour.


Hello Stormer i've seen alot of your post and i love your dedication and hardwork on perserving the purity of Spanish Gamefowl

Can you please show us what a pure Spanish looks like? Also provide is details on weight and height

Thank you
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