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{Asil Forum} {Vietnamese forum}

pakistani Asil Vs Other Game Breeds
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Godwin
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dako Aseel, I breed Ganoi Thai and Brazil. It is possible they have Asil in them as I also believe all game fowl came from India but I don't think they have Pakistani Asil in them.

Actually the Pakistani Aseel I saw lose were years ago as few around me use asil any more except for weapon fighting. They lost to shamo and indian asil. I owned Pakistani Aseel myself that were game but could not win. This was in tape.

True alot of money is involved in most pits that is why you must have the best or you will lose your money. Money and pride are both motivators to breed the best. Years ago I fought my fowl for free, pride only. America is a mix. Not only materialistic. America gives all the world money and food.

I didn't actually say people laugh at Pakistani Aseel, I only said asil. It's true my Vietnamese friends don't think much of pure Asil but Thai x asil or 1/4 asil might win. I was just teasing young Saj because he was being immature and disrespectful.

It seem we don't have quality Pakistani aseel in U.S. Nasser Saab is a friend of mine maybe his Pakistani Aseel are good. But U.S. is a tape spur country (not counting weapons) rules are different.

I do have a couple of my birds in my Gallery. They are Hmong bred birds from Thailand.
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saj
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Godwin wrote:
Dako Aseel, I breed Ganoi Thai and Brazil. It is possible they have Asil in them as I also believe all game fowl came from India but I don't think they have Pakistani Asil in them.
Actually the Pakistani Aseel I saw lose were years ago as few around me use asil any more except for weapon fighting. They lost to shamo and indian asil. I owned Pakistani Aseel myself that were game but could not win. This was in tape.

True alot of money is involved in most pits that is why you must have the best or you will lose your money. Money and pride are both motivators to breed the best. Years ago I fought my fowl for free, pride only. America is a mix. Not only materialistic. America gives all the world money and food.

I didn't actually say people laugh at Pakistani Aseel, I only said asil. It's true my Vietnamese friends don't think much of pure Asil but Thai x asil or 1/4 asil might win. I was just teasing young Saj because he was being immature and disrespectful.

It seem we don't have quality Pakistani aseel in U.S. Nasser Saab is a friend of mine maybe his Pakistani Aseel are good. But U.S. is a tape spur country (not counting weapons) rules are different.

I do have a couple of my birds in my Gallery. They are Hmong bred birds from Thailand.



Some useful info that i highlighted the rest of it is emotions please don't let you emotions get the better of you anyway pakistan was made in 1942 before it was whole of india so was bangladesh also part of india the asil in these places are more or less the same...i don't think U.S is nothing in the sense that does it still allow cockfighting? oh the tape spur c'mon like i said oriental gamefowl are not made for this nor they are bred for this type of fighting only naked heel i have seen in big competions and matches thai fighting BACK IN THAILAND in sharp spur not by kids by pros i think they might of found fault that thai can't take hard hits hence why they are bobing and weaving or it could be that they can't fight for long time hence why they have rounds and washing there birds up. We have cockboxing in Europe which is legal and the guy who introduced this said a bird with style are no good why because a bird that goes in and out runs around uses alot of energy i said this before i don't think nobody belived me but this guy is pro and his name is phillipe PM him we have shamo that do the same neck to neck wrestle but they use there leg not the spur in matches. oh last thing what disrespectful and immature thing have i said please quote
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saj
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just clear sumat up i never said asil is the best i have kept thai and other gamefowl check my gallery

i like these thai


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ceaparte
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though i don't have any experaince in Thai, but i think they have a close relation with Burmese Pama (We called them Trei palian), the fighting style of Thai which i have seen in youtube are very similar to PAMA. In our place PAMA always lost to aseel, though usually they completely dominated the fight in the first round (30 mins)... some PAMA + Aseel cross are excellent fighters... no offence... as you know i am vangnu lover LOL.... i think PAMA energy did not match aseel
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ceaparte
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Godwin wrote:
When ever I've seen Pakistani asil they always lose. Asian people laugh at anyone with Asil and love to match them. Everyone I know has a story about how bad they are. Stay in England Saj because in America your birds will lose.

I am asian and mongolian race .. i never laugh at aseel.. they are good fighters.. Those who laugh at any type of gamefowl have a little experiance in cockfighting.... anything can happen in the pit
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rt4invn
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Godwin, I am with you 100%. All you said, you said it from experience as you have seen all kinds during your life long experience. I have also experienced the same so far and seen so far.
I don't know how people can claim a certain breed to be superior when they haven't seen the ace's outside their circle.

A lot of hmong's/laos/thai/vietnamese people must have read this thread and are keeping quiet out of respect so they don't offend anyone.

Even if some country imported a thai line, please remember that is just some random line they imported and doesn't represent the style breed against entire nation's pak asils or where ever it may be.

You are gonna bring 1, 2 3 4 or more birds to beat the imported and finally someone's is gonna get him, its frekin obvious.

Not sure why u guys keep bringing it up over and over.
For an asil to have a chance against the style bird, it has to be in a top 'handler's' hand. In the u.s I would take on anyone's asil but would probably think twice to go against a trainer like mr. merchant cause I believe he can turn any breed into ace material with his conditioning/excercises.
Then against that is just my opinion so don't be offended by it. I am just speaking from experience.

By the way, i love asils and working on getting them to the next level so they can compete with my thai's/brazils and crosses.
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Dako Aseel
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rt4invn

I don't know how people can claim a certain breed to be superior when they haven't seen the ace's outside their circle.

Even if some country imported a thai line, please remember that is just some random line they imported and doesn't represent the style breed against entire nation's pak asils or where ever it may be.

You are gonna bring 1, 2 3 4 or more birds to beat the imported and finally someone's is gonna get him, its frekin obvious


brother rt4invn

thanks for saying that, words of wisdom. That can be true for any breed and for any import and for any pit. if i want to see thai i have to go to their homeland, in a similar way if you want to see aseel you have to go to the homeland to see what aseels can do. The aseel you have experience does not represent for even .000001% of the aseel breed.

If aseel are not doing good in foreign land than we have to see why they have not been doing good. One thing is for sure that, and i can say that on behalf of pakistani cockers, that they will at no cost will hand their strain to even their blood brother so what to talk about bringing them to international arenas.

What ever experience i had of thai style fighting is gained from utube vids. And to be honest i never liked that style. Because with that style they can not and will never fatigue an Pure Aseel, who is a sign of ULTIMATE endurance, power and strength. As old cockers have recorded in the books that Aseels are the only strain on this face of earth to fight for 4 - 5 days. I think no thais, or other breeds can stand that test.

So if one want to see aseel what they can do, you have to come to their homeland. I respect all breeds and never say that they are bad but no great cockers cage is complete without an aseel in it. THere are so many style aseel strains in existance in Pakistan that you can not imagine. Thai has only one style super lock. We have an aseel strain called "Kulharas" (The Axe) of village Jamu, Bahawalnagar, South Punjab they don't need stand in front of the cock to hit him or to hold him to hit him. They just hit so fast and so hard that none of the battles last for 2 rounds.

I will explain different fighting style of Pakistani real strains at some other time to give you an idea what they are capable of. On the other hand i hear thai Super Lock, and Brazilians foot work. Well brazilians are the decedants of Aseel any way according to Cock fighting all over the world by MR C.A Finsterbusch.
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Dako Aseel
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:

From: IQBAL MERCHANT To: Dako Aseel Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:33 pm Subject: Re: hello u there  Muhammad Afzal Bhai:
AOA
enjoyed viewing the video of Aseel vs thai. I did not know that thais have been imported to Pakistan. My personal view is that 95% of thais are not 100% game, and it takes a lot of effort to find the 5%.
Iqbal Merchant


This is for your information, what Mr IQbal has to say about thais. No offendce to any body
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saj
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Godwin, I am with you 100%. All you said, you said it from experience as you have seen all kinds during your life long experience. I have also experienced the same so far and seen so far.
I don't know how people can claim a certain breed to be superior when they haven't seen the ace's outside their circle.

A lot of hmong's/laos/thai/vietnamese people must have read this thread and are keeping quiet out of respect so they don't offend anyone.

Even if some country imported a thai line, please remember that is just some random line they imported and doesn't represent the style breed against entire nation's pak asils or where ever it may be.


I did say more or less the same even if asil or thai lose it does not repersent the whole entire breed but mr red beard but disagreed.. please read the whole thread! oh I never said the asil is the best please quote don't start barking for no reason

Quote:
You are gonna bring 1, 2 3 4 or more birds to beat the imported and finally someone's is gonna get him, its frekin obvious.

Not sure why u guys keep bringing it up over and over.
For an asil to have a chance against the style bird, it has to be in a top 'handler's' hand. In the u.s I would take on anyone's asil but would probably think twice to go against a trainer like mr. merchant cause I believe he can turn any breed into ace material with his conditioning/excercises.
Then against that is just my opinion so don't be offended by it. I am just speaking from experience.

By the way, i love asils and working on getting them to the next level so they can compete with my thai's/brazils and crosses.


Mr Iqbal saab has already done this thats why i have respect for him i didn't know that he fought asil against alot of other breeds
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Godwin
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dako Aseel you say the best strains are not give even to their blood brother. Then you are right we haven't seen the best Pakistani aseel in the U.S. However I reason that a sharp spur fight, by its nature is a quicker fight than a blunt spur taped fight. Is this not true? Doesn't a sharp spur kill faster than a blunt one? In tape rarely are there early wins. But in naked heel many early wins. Am I right? So how can the Pakistani Aseel be the Ultimate in endurance when for many years he has been breed for sharp spur fighting? Are not these fights of shorter duration? It is true Aseel is the only fowl to fight 4-5 days but this was in tape, the Dora Dirza.

Saj says the Oriental bird was not made for tape spur but does he not know of the Rajah Murghi who set the highest level in the Dora Dirza?These tape fights with Aseels have been going on for hundreds of years.

I must respectively say also that Thai birds have many more styles than just super lock. Vietnamese fowl also.
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alone
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BattlePosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ceaparte wrote:
Godwin wrote:
When ever I've seen Pakistani asil they always lose. Asian people laugh at anyone with Asil and love to match them. Everyone I know has a story about how bad they are. Stay in England Saj because in America your birds will lose.

I am asian and mongolian race .. i never laugh at aseel.. they are good fighters.. Those who laugh at any type of gamefowl have a little experiance in cockfighting.... anything can happen in the pit

hahaha lol i'll refresh your brain http://www.ganoi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=229039#229039 i don't want comment that laughing laughing just on thing, evry best rooster can be in all type gamefowl u r so funny you become crazy cose some guy just said this one is the best n no this one laughing laughing
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saj
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BattlePosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Godwin wrote:
Dako Aseel you say the best strains are not give even to their blood brother. Then you are right we haven't seen the best Pakistani aseel in the U.S. However I reason that a sharp spur fight, by its nature is a quicker fight than a blunt spur taped fight. Is this not true? Doesn't a sharp spur kill faster than a blunt one? In tape rarely are there early wins. But in naked heel many early wins. Am I right? So how can the Pakistani Aseel be the Ultimate in endurance when for many years he has been breed for sharp spur fighting? Are not these fights of shorter duration? It is true Aseel is the only fowl to fight 4-5 days but this was in tape, the Dora Dirza.

Saj says the Oriental bird was not made for tape spur but does he not know of the Rajah Murghi who set the highest level in the Dora Dirza?These tape fights with Aseels have been going on for hundreds of years.

I must respectively say also that Thai birds have many more styles than just super lock. Vietnamese fowl also.


DORA DIRZA are very rare me myself like these rules for training methods but they have come out like yesterday the asil have been fought in sharp spur in persia this is recorded in bazi nama book the asil also was fought in india but it was fought as in endurance the spur would be cut off because of religion reasons people did not belive in killing gamefowl for ones amusement so years of hard endurance fighting has gone into asil thats why they are game if years of not fighting went in to them they will be like show fowl just abit like the staffishire bull terrier they look game and mean but since the dogfighting was banned in UK the staff became more docile and tame anyway we have the persians i'm talking about the persian before sikander(alexandra the great) these was fought in naked heel even infront of alexandra the great asil was fought before his army when the moghul came they introduced the naked heel to india as they favored blood sport and was very similer to the persian the king spoke persian there costums was very similer to the persian some of the kings was shia(muslim branch) aswel the king would be weigh the same as gold and diamond then distruputed to the poor same as the persian kings did the rajah means king and murghi means chicken.
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ceaparte
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BattlePosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alone the way you refresh my brain is very funy LOL please read it again i only highlighted what Waseem said lol lol lol lol lol
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Dako Aseel
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BattlePosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Godwin wrote
Code:
Dako Aseel you say the best strains are not give even to their blood brother. Then you are right we haven't seen the best Pakistani aseel in the U.S. However I reason that a sharp spur fight, by its nature is a quicker fight than a blunt spur taped fight. Is this not true? Doesn't a sharp spur kill faster than a blunt one? In tape rarely are there early wins. But in naked heel many early wins. Am I right? [highlight=yellow]So how can the Pakistani Aseel be the Ultimate in endurance[/highlight] when for many years he has been breed for sharp spur fighting? Are not these fights of shorter duration? It is true Aseel is the only fowl to fight 4-5 days but this was in tape, the Dora Dirza


I will not say a word, about the endurance of pakistani aseel, but just paste the comment of a brother from North America, whom every body knows on ganoi, and he has kept different strains he says

Code:
an imported asil cock strong well built and reasonably tall. was crossed with breed hens and the crosses were very good - [highlight=yellow]able to compete in american gaff derbies. the crosses were very game, able to take punishment and survive to hit back.[/highlight] The asils pure are to slow to compete with american fowl in the steel and win a percentage. [highlight=yellow]Crossed into american fowl they add streanth, accuracy and intelligence. (and beauty) [/highlight]

This is all about endurance that you are talking about, that pakistani aseel doesn't have any endurtance, since when they are fought in Naked Heels.

As far as the rajah Murgh is concerned, again I will not say a word, but let others comments paste for your satisfaction

. C.A Finsterbusch in  his book,cock fighting all over the world, says Page 101 – 102;
   A cross was tried, keeping the dense weight, power, gameness and endurance of the Malay and adding the small size, speed and action of the black game….. this ideal has been reached, nobody will deny who has the opportunity and pleasure of handling one of the small Asils of India, that became the worlds most perfect fighting machines. Pound for pound, endurance and deadly courage …

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Last edited by Dako Aseel on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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alone
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BattlePosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ceaparte i just said read what u write laughing

Last edited by alone on Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dako Aseel
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BattlePosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry my messaage was incomplete; Rajah murgh was not developed for taped fight, but for naked heels, as of today thats what they are doing, All small asil, or Reezas are fought naked heels, be it mianwali, Rajah or any other small aseels.

SO its not that in naked heels pakistani aseels lacked endurance these small aseels were developed, as mentioned by Finsterbusch to have the courage, endurance and strength of a large aseel, which is also clear from that brother account posted above.

I have respect for all breeds, i don't look down on any breed as inferior to any other breed. Its down to the cocker, who should be observant enough and learn through experience to classify his cock for Naked heel, steel or tape fight.
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saj
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BattlePosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rajah asil are great for postiza fights thats why they are bred for this game in other countries and are going very well

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waseem
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BattlePosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry i was away for some days. topic has gone fast forward. One thing misinterpreted, that is, the thai i mentioned taking down 4 or 5 asil and then finally losing.

It is said ain't it obvious that a rooster of flash, no matter how good it is, will eventually lose if pitted repeatedly. TRUE. But initially his wins were not due to his quality but due to dumbness of the opponent asils. Now we know what they have and what kinda asil we need to counter that style. Who wins next is a ? but any thai with similar abilities will never make an easy win now.

This fact of continuous winning proves that this thai was one of the best representatives of his breed. Other imports (viets) i mentioned in my early posts are also high quality roosters, proven in the pit, with all the records available. They are paid over 5000 US dollars for four roosters. They will be kept here by seasoned players and pitted for high bets against best asils in Lahore. so i prefer not to decide at the moment who is rite till i see the outcome of this adventure.
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Dako Aseel
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BattlePosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

by mistake it was repeated
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Godwin
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BattlePosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dako Aseel wrote:
Sorry my messaage was incomplete; Rajah murgh was not developed for taped fight, but for naked heels, as of today thats what they are doing, All small asil, or Reezas are fought naked heels, be it mianwali, Rajah or any other small aseels.

SO its not that in naked heels pakistani aseels lacked endurance these small aseels were developed, as mentioned by Finsterbusch to have the courage, endurance and strength of a large aseel, which is also clear from that brother account posted above.

I have respect for all breeds, i don't look down on any breed as inferior to any other breed. Its down to the cocker, who should be observant enough and learn through experience to classify his cock for Naked heel, steel or tape fight.


So the Rajah murgh was not fought in the Dora Dirza? I apolgize for my mistake. Which breeds were used in the Dora Dirza?

I did not mean Pakistani aseel lacked endurance. I am sure they have much endurance. I am inquiring so I can learn. This is why I ask about naked heel compared to tape. How long is average fight in Pakistani naked heel? Can a naked heel Aseel last in long fight with tape spur?
By what you wrote above it seems mostly small Aseel are fought naked heel?

I respect the Aseel. I also believe everyone should be able to breed and fight whatever style the want. However I do believe some breeds are inferior to others.
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Dako Aseel
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BattlePosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know, Finsterbusch did not mention explicitly about which cock fought in dora dirza. But Rajah Murgh was developed through a cross of Malay with Black Sumatra, latter had the capacity of fighting naked heelas but not with malay, so thats the reason which i believe the Rajah was develop.
But for what ever reason they were develop now a days the small aseels or reezas are purely fought naked heels, which end up with either of the cock going blind both eyes.
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waseem
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BattlePosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Godwin. (1) Asil in all size are fought in naked heel but it is true that tap boxers like big birds and naked heeler prefer small birds.(2). Average naked heels fight goes 2 to 3 rounds...5 minutes each. Good ones are done in ist round. (3). Naked heelers are long tested/spared at home before fighting naked heel. They do posses all the gameness for long tap box sessions. (4) There are asil that can handel any style or any wapon.
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Godwin
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BattlePosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waseem thank you this information is more like what I had learned before.
As you know the Vietnamese Ganoi are tape fighters, they can't fight fast enough for naked heel. But in tape I believe are as good as any Asil. Some fight over 20 rounds.
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IQBAL MERCHANT
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BattlePosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Tommy Godwin about the Gameness and endurance of Ganoi fowl from Vietnam. What impresses me is their heavy bones and very muscular skeletal, resembling the very best MASIYAL Aseel from the native land. The feathering is naturally very scant and surprisingly the crow is very short and gruff like the best aseel. The Ganois people boxed with me in the past did not have very heavy clout but the Ganois I have can really hit and punch hard. A good Ganoi will duck and weave and come from behind and hit the back of the head of the opponent. I am completing my second year with the Ganois but they are 100% game and so the future looks positive. The two molting season I have had them one has as yet to hack and refuse combat. After a long box they recover rapidly and ready for their regular exercise, no moping and refusing to eat, very RESILIENT a feature very important in my evaluation of gameness.
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thailine
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BattlePosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like thai...

they are good at everything, but i am biased because i am born native thai.

but if you like gaff or knife, this is what thailand fight in the southern thailand. just to show their are alot of varieties. game in every catagorỵ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VT0Q8CcHS4
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